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SJC-13365
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Hume Lake Christian Camps, Inc.
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v The Planning Board of Monterey.
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Okay, attorney Brewer, whenever you're ready.
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Chief Justice, Fellow Justices.
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My name is Donna Brewer
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and I'm here representing the Planning Board of Monterey.
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I wanna give you a little bit of background.
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Monterey is a small town in Southern Berkshire.
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It is very close to the Connecticut border,
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and it has the last census, 2020 census a 1,000 people.
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Hume Lake Christian Camps has about 400 acres in Monterey.
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In 2019, it filed an application for site plan review
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and approval for an RV trailer park.
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That application was denied on July 25th, 2019
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by the Planning Board.
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At the outset I wanna note that Monterey
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has no hostility to or prejudice against
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Hume's religious beliefs.
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That's not why we're here.
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Much of Hume's arguments
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address the faith of the safe staff and the attendees.
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That is not the issue,
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nor is it the question that the volunteers do valuable work
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or that the seasonal staff do valuable work.
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Rather the issue is as to the RV park
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as I'm paraphrasing from Regis College case,
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there's a two-pronged test
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that's going to be applied to this RV park.
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One, the youth must have as its bonafide goal,
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something that can be reasonably described
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as religiously significant.
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And two, the religiously significant goal
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must be the dominant or primary purpose
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for which the land or the structures will be used.
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Now can I ask you,
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why do you rely on that one
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rather than the Laslett case right now?
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Well, I'll get to the Laslett case,
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which I think is more of an accessory use case
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in the sense that,
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I think the Laslett case actually helps us.
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It is not against what the Planning Board's decision is.
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There's been a lot of talk in the briefs
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about the maintenance shed
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and whether the maintenance shed is a religious use.
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I'd say that goes to the accessory use.
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But the reason why it's different
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is that the maintenance shed
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specifically and directly is holding religious artifacts.
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The lights for the festival of lights they talk about.
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But here the distinction is
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the volunteers are what are important
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for the operation of the camp,
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not where those volunteers are housed.
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We're talking about an RV camp
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that they're putting there for housing
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when there is no finding that this housing as an RV camp
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is necessary for the support of the religious activity.
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What if they put the campers in the RV camp?
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If they put the campers?
Yeah.
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That may not be it either.
Why not?
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Because what you're talking about,
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the use of the property
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and the use of the property in that case is housing.
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They're gonna be sleeping there.
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Maybe they'll be eating there,
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but they're not having prayer sessions there.
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But if dorm in a college, right?
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Is a dorm in a college
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is gonna be part of the college, right?
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We said that the dorm is not protected as under Dover.
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I assume we say it is protected, right?
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Well, so in that instance, there is a,
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in the educational context,
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we're talking about a full panoply of programs
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and experiences, and we're talking about-
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An overnight camp.
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I mean, it's a camp where people come for weeks at a time,
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they need to sleep and they need enough places to sleep
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and they need to both sleep their staff
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and sleep their kids, right?
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I follow the judge's reasoning all the way up
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until she started dividing up who was using the RVs.
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Then I started saying, "I've never seen a case
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where we do it so granularly, okay?
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We have in the cases
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discussed the specific uses of the property.
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So for example, in the Tufts College case
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where talking about the parking garage,
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you're talking about the parking garage
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and its connection to the library.
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How did we rule in the parking garage?
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I've forgotten what the ultimate,
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that's a hard case to follow, but what-
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Yeah, curiously enough.
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So the parking garage case, the Tufts College case involved,
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it wasn't permitted in the specific district,
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the garage itself.
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But what's curious is that you did allow
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the application of the side yard setbacks.
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So the college said, "We only need 30 feet,
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or we only want 30 feet for our side yard setback."
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The Medford said, "No, you need 50."
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What was curious in that case is that the court said,
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"There was no showing that there was a financial reason,
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a cost that interfered with the use of the property
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for education and therefore if the 50 yard setback
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was applied, and therefore the 50 yard setback applied."
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In this case, we've had a trial.
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And the court found evidence that the primary and dominant
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purpose of this RV par park was to save money.
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No she doesn't do that.
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She finds the primary purpose for,
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she divides it into three things at the end.
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Yeah.
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And she finds that two of them are religious based,
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two of them are part of the mission and one isn't.
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But that just doesn't work, does it?
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It's gotta be all three,
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or it's gotta be one way or the other.
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Either it's a financial move or it's a religious move.
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It it can't be two thirds religious
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and one third financial can it?
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That's gotta be wrong for the reasons
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that Reba states, right?
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First the finding was different.
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She found that the use of the property to house volunteers
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was not religious.
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That was financial.
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Secondly, she found that the housing of seasonal staff
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at the RV park was financial, not religious.
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No, She finds two of them meet the requirements.
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Right, I mean, I had trouble figuring out exactly
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what she did at the end,
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but she finds two of them are basically necessary
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to run this religious mission camp.
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The housing your students there and housing your staff there
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are fine.
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It's the volunteers she decides is purely financial.
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It's trial-
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And she doesn't even do that, you know?
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Trial court finding 47, paragraph 47,
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"The primary purpose of the volunteer component
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to the RV campus to save money."
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I agree with that.
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Then trial court-
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How about the other two parts?
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Trial court finding paragraph 49,
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"The primary purpose of the seasonal staff component
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of the RV campus to save money."
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But then doesn't she go on and say that
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it's necessary because they're losing money
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and therefore it's part of the religious mission?
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No, your Honor.
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In fact, What she's talking about,
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she accepts that the volunteers provide a service.
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The volunteers, again,
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let's go back to these volunteers have no obligation
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to take part in any religious activity at the camp.
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They are not required to sign any statement of belief.
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They are not required to have any religious belief at all.
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What they are doing for the camp
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is building Adirondack chairs and doing raking and planting.
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Well, can I ask you?
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As we're looking at this, what our factual predicate is
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because the argument on the other side
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that it's not financial, but that it's religious
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relates to financial, which is to run these overnight camps
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cost a fortune and they can't do their religious mission
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without the volunteers.
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There'll be no camp without them.
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So first of all,
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how does that relate to what happened at trial and findings?
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How does that fit in with their argument?
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So there's two different aspects
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that I want us to keep in mind here.
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One of which is the necessity of volunteers,
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and the other is the necessity of housing those volunteers.
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They say it's inextricably intertwined
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because it, I'm not saying that they're right,
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but let's let 'em have their,
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and I'm not saying what happened at the trial reflects us,
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but they're saying it's inextricably intertwined.
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We can't afford to get the volunteers.
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And also this is why they come. It works for them.
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This attracts volunteers
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and it gives us a chance to preach to them about conversion.
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So why is that wrong?
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Based on the trial and based on the argument.
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Couple of things if I can address the second one first.
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Which is yes, they can proselytize to non-believers
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who are the volunteers.
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That doesn't mean that's the primary or dominant purpose
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of the RV camp.
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Second, there was absolutely no evidence at the trial
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that the RV park was necessary to obtain volunteers.
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To the contrary, Mr. Sablowski testified
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that he has lots of people who wanna volunteer.
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That has not been an impediment to the institution,
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to this camp existing.
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I asked you, I'm sorry to interrupt.
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I know you're in the middle of answering question,
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but back to justice Kafka's question,
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which I think he may have had backwards.
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I think two parts of the RV camp were financial.
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One part was actually religious, the family camp.
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So how, as a practical matter is that to be implemented?
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You can look at it one of two ways.
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One of which is you look at it collectively
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as I think the justice was alluding to.
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Collectively the prominent and the primary and dominant
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portion of this RV camp is to provide housing to anybody,
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whether it's the seasonal staff, the volunteers, or people-
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So let's just say we disagree with you
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and we agree with the finder of fact who said,
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"At least for the family camp,
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the primary purpose is religious."
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Then what do we do?
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Then you can look collectively
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at the primary and dominant purpose
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of the RV camp altogether.
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Remember what they're gonna be-
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But two outta three means no dice.
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Two outta three means no dice.
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Why?
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I would say, because that's therefore
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not the primary and dominant purpose of the RV camp.
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This is 6% of the residents are financially based.
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And a third is for the families
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who wanna practice the religion as a family.
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That is not different from the judgment
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that this court has made
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and other appellate courts have made
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when looking at the use of property for religious purposes,
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they make a distinction in the cases.
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The Collins case, although it's not an appellate case,
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is one indeed where they're looking
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at any financial benefit.
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If you take your reasoning,
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any financial benefit to a religious institution
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would be entitled protection under the Dover Amendment.
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That is not what the case is saying.
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Well, that's not necessarily true
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because in those other cases,
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you have instances where you have third parties
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that are operating things that we talk about
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that there's no oversight from the religious organization
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to members is operating
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the whatever's generating the income.
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But this is different. This is different.
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They're operating this and I'm still struggling with,
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I think Reba makes a very good point here,
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but if we zoom out here and look collectively
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at the RV park, they've already testified
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that they don't generate enough income to run the thing.
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They've gotta get some support
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from the National Hume organization.
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You've already told us about that.
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There are very few residents in Monterey.
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So they have all of these things now
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where they're trying to run this park
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that is predicated on the religious experience with nature
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integrating the two.
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So now they've devised this plan
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00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:43.830
to have people come to this RV parks, whether it's families
267
00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:46.980
or volunteers to help the overarching
268
00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:51.000
overall mission of Hume.
269
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.550
How is that not protected?
270
00:13:53.550 --> 00:13:55.650
A couple of things, I wanna make it clear.
271
00:13:55.650 --> 00:14:00.570
It doesn't matter who is operating the RV park
272
00:14:00.570 --> 00:14:05.160
or as it was suggested in the amicus brief,
273
00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:07.860
which I think is just absolutely off base.
274
00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:09.870
Look at the Christian communications case
275
00:14:09.870 --> 00:14:12.270
where you're talking about they were operating
276
00:14:12.270 --> 00:14:15.720
a radio tower and four hours
277
00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:20.720
was going to be directed to religious proselytizing
278
00:14:20.790 --> 00:14:22.710
18 hours total.
279
00:14:22.710 --> 00:14:24.877
And the court said in that case,
280
00:14:24.877 --> 00:14:29.877
"No, that is not predominantly, primarily a religious use."
281
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.523
Let's look at.
282
00:14:34.950 --> 00:14:37.650
But La Salle, right? How about La Salle?
283
00:14:37.650 --> 00:14:39.660
So La Salle was interesting.
284
00:14:39.660 --> 00:14:44.660
It does indeed find that it looks at all of the particular
285
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.180
uses of the property,
286
00:14:48.180 --> 00:14:52.860
whether it's the welcome center or the safe house
287
00:14:52.860 --> 00:14:54.660
or the maintenance shed.
288
00:14:54.660 --> 00:14:58.920
It does indeed look granularly at the use of the property
289
00:14:58.920 --> 00:15:03.270
to determine what is religiously based,
290
00:15:03.270 --> 00:15:07.890
what is predominantly religiously based and what isn't.
291
00:15:07.890 --> 00:15:09.630
And what's curious in that case,
292
00:15:09.630 --> 00:15:14.610
is they did not find that everything,
293
00:15:14.610 --> 00:15:18.810
because it's owned property by the religious institution,
294
00:15:18.810 --> 00:15:21.150
that therefore it's all gonna be religious.
295
00:15:21.150 --> 00:15:24.780
They did say, "No, some of this you're allowing to use
296
00:15:24.780 --> 00:15:26.880
for secular uses."
297
00:15:26.880 --> 00:15:30.030
Perhaps it would've qualified under a different clause
298
00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:33.753
for tax exemption, but it doesn't fall under Clause 11.
299
00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:37.143
One of the cases that you might-
300
00:15:38.749 --> 00:15:40.410
I thought La Salle was the university case
301
00:15:40.410 --> 00:15:43.230
where they consider it more to be a nursing home
302
00:15:43.230 --> 00:15:44.306
or something.
303
00:15:44.306 --> 00:15:45.930
Oh, I'm sorry. I was thinking of Laslett.
304
00:15:45.930 --> 00:15:47.263
I was mixing them up.
305
00:15:47.263 --> 00:15:50.594
Because in that case, in La Salle,
306
00:15:50.594 --> 00:15:52.267
they analyze things as a whole and they said,
307
00:15:52.267 --> 00:15:55.380
"Okay, this really isn't an educational institution.
308
00:15:55.380 --> 00:15:57.570
It's really a nursing home or whatever
309
00:15:57.570 --> 00:15:59.490
Exactly.
an elderly housing area."
310
00:15:59.490 --> 00:16:00.870
Exactly, and you can look
311
00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:02.937
and go back to your Regis college case.
312
00:16:02.937 --> 00:16:05.280
But isn't that what we're supposed to do here?
313
00:16:05.280 --> 00:16:09.060
Well, no, because you're looking specifically at the use.
314
00:16:09.060 --> 00:16:11.910
Again, to go back to the Tufts College case,
315
00:16:11.910 --> 00:16:15.030
we agree Tufts College is an educational institution.
316
00:16:15.030 --> 00:16:16.860
They looked at the parking garage
317
00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:20.820
specifically because that is the structure
318
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:23.160
that was not permitted under zoning
319
00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:25.890
and had certain setbacks that had to be met.
320
00:16:25.890 --> 00:16:29.850
Here, it's not the camp itself that is in question.
321
00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:30.683
It is the-
322
00:16:30.683 --> 00:16:33.240
But you can't have a camp without housing
323
00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:35.490
and you don't have enough housing in the camp.
324
00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:38.670
So it's a chicken and egg thing.
325
00:16:38.670 --> 00:16:42.600
Well, that wasn't actually found and that was the basis.
326
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:43.560
Whether that's true or not,
327
00:16:43.560 --> 00:16:45.391
that's not backed up in the record.
328
00:16:45.391 --> 00:16:47.490
That's what you said in response to my question about-
329
00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:49.740
It's not in the record. Correct.
330
00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:53.160
The court that you will find that as Hume's argument
331
00:16:53.160 --> 00:16:55.500
and that is what they put in their application
332
00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:56.550
to the planning board.
333
00:16:56.550 --> 00:16:59.730
But that is not what was found by the trial court.
334
00:16:59.730 --> 00:17:03.029
The trial court found that in fact,
335
00:17:03.029 --> 00:17:05.520
this was for financial reasons.
336
00:17:05.520 --> 00:17:08.760
You're going to put the volunteers there
337
00:17:08.760 --> 00:17:12.600
in this quid pro quo, which you've heard about today
338
00:17:12.600 --> 00:17:14.460
in a whole different context.
339
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:19.230
But the fact is there are more than enough volunteers
340
00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:20.790
there already.
341
00:17:20.790 --> 00:17:23.700
There is no finding that this is necessary
342
00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:25.530
in order to get volunteers.
343
00:17:25.530 --> 00:17:28.080
It is the volunteers that are necessary
344
00:17:28.080 --> 00:17:29.100
for running the camp.
345
00:17:29.100 --> 00:17:33.030
But counsel to the extent we have to examine that
346
00:17:33.030 --> 00:17:34.590
or examine that in the future,
347
00:17:34.590 --> 00:17:36.990
or you have to examine that in the future.
348
00:17:36.990 --> 00:17:40.231
Aren't we unnecessarily getting entangled at this point
349
00:17:40.231 --> 00:17:44.280
with decisions of the religious organization?
350
00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:47.250
Boy, you know, unfortunately I think that is hard
351
00:17:47.250 --> 00:17:49.740
to avoid in any of these cases.
352
00:17:49.740 --> 00:17:52.218
Let's look at the Timothy Hill case,
353
00:17:52.218 --> 00:17:56.010
the trial court case that found that a Christian camp
354
00:17:56.010 --> 00:17:58.380
was indeed a religious use.
355
00:17:58.380 --> 00:18:02.370
Here, what's curious in that case
356
00:18:02.370 --> 00:18:04.680
in which I struggled with when I read it,
357
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:06.180
is it talked about the camp
358
00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:09.540
is also used by secular organizations.
359
00:18:09.540 --> 00:18:11.820
What was missing in that analysis
360
00:18:11.820 --> 00:18:14.070
is the weighing between the two.
361
00:18:14.070 --> 00:18:16.680
How much are they renting out for weddings
362
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.490
and family gatherings in order to get money
363
00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:22.980
for the religious group
364
00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.520
as opposed to using it for a religious care.
365
00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:27.357
So you're saying they didn't do the balancing there
366
00:18:27.357 --> 00:18:28.860
and so how did they come out?
367
00:18:28.860 --> 00:18:29.693
I forget.
368
00:18:29.693 --> 00:18:31.207
Yeah, in that case, they just said,
369
00:18:31.207 --> 00:18:33.810
"Yes, this is a Christian camp. It's religious."
370
00:18:33.810 --> 00:18:37.410
They didn't have any issue in there about an RV camp.
371
00:18:37.410 --> 00:18:39.090
And again, we're back
372
00:18:39.090 --> 00:18:43.380
to what is it that is the primary and dominant purpose
373
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:45.150
of this RV camp.
374
00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:47.700
I submit that the court was right
375
00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:51.540
to find that it was primarily financial.
376
00:18:51.540 --> 00:18:56.540
That is, you have Mr. Sablowski, sorry, and Mr. Harris,
377
00:18:57.210 --> 00:19:01.290
the two witnesses both saying we're doing this
378
00:19:01.290 --> 00:19:04.560
and in return we get all these free services
379
00:19:04.560 --> 00:19:07.080
that we'd otherwise have to pay for.
380
00:19:07.080 --> 00:19:12.080
But that would make sense to me if the RV camp was,
381
00:19:12.120 --> 00:19:15.960
they created an RV camp and they didn't have,
382
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:17.640
they didn't use it for anything related
383
00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:18.990
to the religious mission.
384
00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:23.340
They just said, "Okay, I got all this extra space out there.
385
00:19:23.340 --> 00:19:25.650
Monterey is a beautiful place.
386
00:19:25.650 --> 00:19:28.140
We're gonna have a lot of people touring it.
387
00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:29.940
Let's have an RV camp there,
388
00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:31.440
will collect the money from that.
389
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:35.280
Those people don't work here. They don't house our kids.
390
00:19:35.280 --> 00:19:38.280
They just generate money for us."
391
00:19:38.280 --> 00:19:39.840
That to me, yes, you're right.
392
00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:41.760
That's primarily financial,
393
00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:44.343
but that isn't what this RV camp does.
394
00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:50.170
Anybody who uses that RV camp is working or residing
395
00:19:51.150 --> 00:19:53.820
or volunteering in this place.
396
00:19:53.820 --> 00:19:55.646
So I find it hard to separate
397
00:19:55.646 --> 00:19:58.290
it out from the religious mission there.
398
00:19:58.290 --> 00:20:01.620
Again, if we're an RV camp to generate money
399
00:20:01.620 --> 00:20:03.690
because they're losing money
400
00:20:03.690 --> 00:20:05.520
and the people didn't have to live there or work there,
401
00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:07.410
but that rather they toured the Berkshires
402
00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:10.410
and they went to all the great places out in the Berkshire.
403
00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:11.760
That's primarily financial.
404
00:20:11.760 --> 00:20:14.703
But this is different, it's integrated into the mission.
405
00:20:15.930 --> 00:20:17.880
What's integrated into the mission
406
00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.290
are the volunteers themselves, not the RV park.
407
00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:25.830
The RV park is simply being used
408
00:20:25.830 --> 00:20:30.510
for sleeping, eating, relaxing.
409
00:20:30.510 --> 00:20:32.910
That's where these volunteers will go the campers.
410
00:20:32.910 --> 00:20:36.030
Well, how's that different than a coffee shop at Laslett?
411
00:20:36.030 --> 00:20:38.250
So the difference for,
412
00:20:38.250 --> 00:20:41.218
actually it's actually not that different
413
00:20:41.218 --> 00:20:44.700
except for the fact that the coffee shop
414
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:49.700
is integrated into the programmatic LaSalle offerings.
415
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:51.575
The it's in the same
416
00:20:51.575 --> 00:20:53.659
Year and all that
417
00:20:53.659 --> 00:20:55.650
As of that as the video welcoming,
418
00:20:55.650 --> 00:20:59.103
telling them all about our Lady of Laslett.
419
00:21:00.210 --> 00:21:05.210
The here, there's no religious activity taking place
420
00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:09.300
for all that you're saying that the family camp
421
00:21:09.300 --> 00:21:12.150
is going to use this for contemplation,
422
00:21:12.150 --> 00:21:14.970
coming back after lunch by the family.
423
00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:16.983
There's in fact no evidence to that.
424
00:21:17.910 --> 00:21:19.380
There is no evidence.
425
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.990
How is that different from a college dorm though?
426
00:21:21.990 --> 00:21:23.610
Again, so a college dorm,
427
00:21:23.610 --> 00:21:26.670
you're going to have college activities in dorms.
428
00:21:26.670 --> 00:21:29.670
It just they all have common rooms,
429
00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:31.860
they all have activities that take place here.
430
00:21:31.860 --> 00:21:34.920
We don't have that in an RV park.
431
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:39.000
What we have is housing for these people who will go
432
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:42.300
and engage in religious activities perhaps
433
00:21:42.300 --> 00:21:45.450
not the volunteers, but the other two will say
434
00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:49.380
engage in religious activities at the camp,
435
00:21:49.380 --> 00:21:51.402
not in the RV park.
436
00:21:51.402 --> 00:21:54.690
Again, to go back to Regis College, what it tells us,
437
00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:57.870
we look at, and McClain says the same thing.
438
00:21:57.870 --> 00:22:02.760
You look at the primary and dominant purpose of the RV park,
439
00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:05.160
not the people.
440
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.860
I'm, again, we're not challenging the faith.
441
00:22:07.860 --> 00:22:10.080
What we're looking at is the primary dominant
442
00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:15.080
use of this RV park, and it is not religious.
443
00:22:15.090 --> 00:22:17.583
It has no religious programming in it.
444
00:22:18.930 --> 00:22:20.430
The camp is operating fine.
445
00:22:20.430 --> 00:22:23.070
There is no finding that this is necessary
446
00:22:23.070 --> 00:22:25.770
providing this housing is necessary
447
00:22:25.770 --> 00:22:28.173
in order for the religious camp to survive.
448
00:22:33.600 --> 00:22:35.450
When you say that, do you mean that
449
00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:40.650
if the camp wasn't there, where would the people be?
450
00:22:40.650 --> 00:22:42.270
Where would they go? Where would they sleep?
451
00:22:42.270 --> 00:22:43.370
Where would they stay?
452
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.722
If the camp weren't there or the RV park?
453
00:22:46.722 --> 00:22:47.790
The RV park.
454
00:22:47.790 --> 00:22:50.850
Yeah, the camp's been there for 40 years.
455
00:22:50.850 --> 00:22:52.743
They've never had an RV park.
456
00:22:53.790 --> 00:22:56.070
Okay.
I see my time is well over.
457
00:22:56.070 --> 00:22:57.660
Thank you.
458
00:22:57.660 --> 00:22:58.493
Thank you.
459
00:23:01.530 --> 00:23:02.730
Good afternoon, Your Honors.
460
00:23:02.730 --> 00:23:03.563
Oh, great.
461
00:23:03.563 --> 00:23:04.920
May I please the court?
462
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.310
Alexandra Glover for Hume Lake Christian Camps Inc.
463
00:23:08.310 --> 00:23:09.660
Attorney Glover, I hate to interrupt you
464
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:10.980
before I know you're gonna begin,
465
00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:12.960
but one question I don't want you to leave
466
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.280
without answering is,
467
00:23:14.280 --> 00:23:17.100
assume for the sake of argument we agree with you.
468
00:23:17.100 --> 00:23:20.820
What do we do with the land court judge's decision?
469
00:23:20.820 --> 00:23:25.820
Do we just make the call and say that it issues
470
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.570
and you can go away.
471
00:23:27.570 --> 00:23:29.010
What do we do with it?
472
00:23:29.010 --> 00:23:30.420
Thank you your Honor.
473
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:31.650
In this particular case,
474
00:23:31.650 --> 00:23:34.020
under these facts and on this record,
475
00:23:34.020 --> 00:23:37.920
I think this court can, and I'd suggest should
476
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.730
affirm the trial court as to all but,
477
00:23:41.730 --> 00:23:44.910
and then reverse the trial court on the primary purpose
478
00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:47.040
of the housing of the volunteers
479
00:23:47.040 --> 00:23:50.910
and the housing of the seasonal staff to be financial,
480
00:23:50.910 --> 00:23:52.590
reverse the court on that position.
481
00:23:52.590 --> 00:23:55.410
Is that a question of fact or a question of law?
482
00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:57.900
Is it supported in the record?
483
00:23:57.900 --> 00:23:59.984
Is there a finding to that effect?
484
00:23:59.984 --> 00:24:02.490
Well, your honor, the question of the primary purpose,
485
00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:06.300
the land is a well established as a question of law
486
00:24:06.300 --> 00:24:07.830
for the court.
487
00:24:07.830 --> 00:24:11.150
The subsidiary fact, this is very mixed,
488
00:24:14.280 --> 00:24:15.390
so it's hard to separate out.
489
00:24:15.390 --> 00:24:16.803
So it is a question of law.
490
00:24:18.090 --> 00:24:21.480
I will just diverge from this for a moment.
491
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:23.430
With just following up on that.
492
00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:26.460
So you have, again, I may have it backwards.
493
00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:28.707
So two-thirds of it, she finds one way
494
00:24:28.707 --> 00:24:31.110
and one third of it, she find two-thirds of it.
495
00:24:31.110 --> 00:24:32.895
She finds primarily financial
496
00:24:32.895 --> 00:24:37.050
and one third primarily religious or the other way around.
497
00:24:37.050 --> 00:24:39.247
But how then we can say,
498
00:24:39.247 --> 00:24:42.210
"Okay, even if she found two-thirds of it financial,
499
00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:47.210
we could still rule that it's primarily financial based."
500
00:24:47.730 --> 00:24:48.840
You absolutely can, your Honor,
501
00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:50.070
because it's a question of laws.
502
00:24:50.070 --> 00:24:52.530
So the what what the court found was,
503
00:24:52.530 --> 00:24:56.040
and I agree with the court's findings, application of law,
504
00:24:56.040 --> 00:24:59.043
all the way till we hit the point that I'll point out.
505
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.120
The court found the primary purpose was cost.
506
00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:05.790
It is a question of law in both the religious
507
00:25:05.790 --> 00:25:08.620
and the educational cases under the Dover Amendment
508
00:25:09.510 --> 00:25:11.070
as to what the primary purpose is.
509
00:25:11.070 --> 00:25:15.030
So this court on this record can see the primary purpose
510
00:25:15.030 --> 00:25:17.160
is not cost and here's why.
511
00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:19.620
The question before the court was,
512
00:25:19.620 --> 00:25:22.860
what is the use of the RV park?
513
00:25:22.860 --> 00:25:25.020
Parenthetically, it's not just an RV park.
514
00:25:25.020 --> 00:25:26.910
That's what we've been calling it for shorthand.
515
00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:28.890
It's temporary seasonal housing
516
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:30.668
it would include temporary trailers.
517
00:25:30.668 --> 00:25:33.090
It's not just RVs coming and going.
518
00:25:33.090 --> 00:25:34.650
The camp's not gonna buy 12 RVs
519
00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:37.143
and house their seasonal staff in it.
520
00:25:38.069 --> 00:25:40.290
The real purpose of the RV park
521
00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:45.290
and clear in the record is seasonal housing
522
00:25:46.350 --> 00:25:49.650
for participants at programs
523
00:25:49.650 --> 00:25:52.440
and for workers at the camp period.
524
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.390
That is undisputed.
525
00:25:54.390 --> 00:25:56.310
That's what the RV park is for.
526
00:25:56.310 --> 00:26:00.180
What the workers at the camp as a subsidiary finding mean.
527
00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:02.013
Does that include the volunteers?
528
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:04.080
I'm sorry, your Honor, I didn't hear the first.
529
00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:05.280
That include the volunteers.
530
00:26:05.280 --> 00:26:06.990
You said Anne workers at the king?
531
00:26:06.990 --> 00:26:08.130
It does, yes, your Honor.
532
00:26:08.130 --> 00:26:11.370
And there is no meaningful distinction for Dover Amendment
533
00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:15.270
purposes between the seasonal staff that's hired
534
00:26:15.270 --> 00:26:18.153
and the temporary seasonal staff that volunteers.
535
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:21.450
To go back, the Dover, excuse me,
536
00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:25.230
the Martin case made it clear there's this inquiry,
537
00:26:25.230 --> 00:26:27.150
what is the purpose of, in that case,
538
00:26:27.150 --> 00:26:29.370
it's a portion of the structure.
539
00:26:29.370 --> 00:26:31.830
The answer is it's part of the church.
540
00:26:31.830 --> 00:26:34.587
It's part of the church where worship takes place.
541
00:26:34.587 --> 00:26:38.490
And Martin said, "No further inquiry was warranted."
542
00:26:38.490 --> 00:26:40.710
I'd suggest here that's the right answer.
543
00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:42.720
And that's where the court should have stopped
544
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:46.110
for the court then that the line the court has
545
00:26:46.110 --> 00:26:49.773
in the decision is each use is materially different.
546
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.290
That's where the court went
547
00:26:52.290 --> 00:26:55.200
out of the Dover Amendment analysis.
548
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.660
The word necessary has been used here today.
549
00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.780
Martin specifically strikes the word necessary
550
00:27:00.780 --> 00:27:04.680
from a religious Dover Amendment analysis.
551
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.410
The question is not whether the use is necessary,
552
00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:10.950
it's whether it is related to or in furtherance of.
553
00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:13.050
Well, it's primarily, there's the word primarily.
554
00:27:13.050 --> 00:27:14.249
Yes, your Honor.
555
00:27:14.249 --> 00:27:15.082
Which is different-
556
00:27:15.082 --> 00:27:16.397
That primarily something
557
00:27:16.397 --> 00:27:18.630
has to be either primarily financial
558
00:27:18.630 --> 00:27:20.370
or primarily religious, right?
559
00:27:20.370 --> 00:27:21.360
And under the Dover Amendment,
560
00:27:21.360 --> 00:27:24.090
the question is whether the primary use of the land
561
00:27:24.090 --> 00:27:26.280
or structure is religious.
562
00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:30.300
The answer here is just like a maintenance shed
563
00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:34.830
that's housing vehicles in the Laslett case,
564
00:27:34.830 --> 00:27:36.660
the primary purpose of the use of the land
565
00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:38.810
is the Christian ministry through the camp.
566
00:27:39.810 --> 00:27:43.170
The housing of people who are related
567
00:27:43.170 --> 00:27:45.660
to the work of that Christian ministry at the camp.
568
00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:47.340
Both people attending programs
569
00:27:47.340 --> 00:27:51.420
and people working at the camp that is the primary purpose.
570
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:56.400
They are related to the primary purpose of the land,
571
00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.436
so much more so than maintenance vehicles and Laslett.
572
00:27:59.436 --> 00:28:03.240
I wanna point out it wasn't just religious
573
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:05.160
decorations for Christmas that were housed
574
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:07.050
in the maintenance shed.
575
00:28:07.050 --> 00:28:09.630
The court actually spent a lot of time talking about
576
00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:11.550
the fact that there were vehicles
577
00:28:11.550 --> 00:28:13.653
that were used by the staff.
578
00:28:14.764 --> 00:28:18.060
I'd say in this case that there's a side point
579
00:28:18.060 --> 00:28:20.253
that should be a significant concern.
580
00:28:21.930 --> 00:28:26.010
If the logic of the land court is followed through,
581
00:28:26.010 --> 00:28:29.670
then how can any non-profit,
582
00:28:29.670 --> 00:28:31.830
let's say religious organization,
583
00:28:31.830 --> 00:28:34.260
rely on the use of volunteers
584
00:28:34.260 --> 00:28:38.100
if to do so is going to in any way implicate
585
00:28:38.100 --> 00:28:39.993
a local municipal regulation?
586
00:28:41.430 --> 00:28:44.947
If the court found, so the court split here and said,
587
00:28:44.947 --> 00:28:48.166
"Well, for the seasonal workers, the ones that are hired,
588
00:28:48.166 --> 00:28:50.910
the primary purpose of the use of the RV park
589
00:28:50.910 --> 00:28:54.300
is cost savings because you don't wanna build
590
00:28:54.300 --> 00:28:56.130
a whole building."
591
00:28:56.130 --> 00:28:58.417
As to volunteers, what the court said is,
592
00:28:58.417 --> 00:29:00.600
"The primary purpose is cost
593
00:29:00.600 --> 00:29:04.950
because you don't wanna pay seasonal staff."
594
00:29:04.950 --> 00:29:07.260
Volunteers don't only come in RVs,
595
00:29:07.260 --> 00:29:10.440
so volunteers come in their own cars as well.
596
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:13.050
Some come in RVs and that's a nice perk
597
00:29:13.050 --> 00:29:15.330
that the camp would like to use to attract them
598
00:29:15.330 --> 00:29:16.770
and also to accommodate them.
599
00:29:16.770 --> 00:29:19.200
You can't just park an RV behind the building.
600
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:20.520
Hume's gonna comply with the law
601
00:29:20.520 --> 00:29:22.260
and will not have recreational vehicles
602
00:29:22.260 --> 00:29:25.323
on the campus if they're not permitted to do so.
603
00:29:26.370 --> 00:29:31.230
But if the court's logic is followed through,
604
00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:34.440
why can the volunteers stay in a building
605
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.880
that only exists under Dover Amendment protection?
606
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:43.880
Every structure on the Hume campus in Monterey,
607
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.140
all the new structures are there
608
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:48.450
under the auspices of the Dover Amendment,
609
00:29:48.450 --> 00:29:50.280
pursuant to site plan review
610
00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:53.160
under the Monterey zoning bylaw for religious uses.
611
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:55.620
There is no zoning distinction
612
00:29:55.620 --> 00:29:58.980
between the permanent buildings that are built
613
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:01.953
and the temporary seasonal housing.
614
00:30:03.780 --> 00:30:06.540
I'd say something else about the temporary nature,
615
00:30:06.540 --> 00:30:08.070
there are other facts
616
00:30:08.070 --> 00:30:11.400
supporting the reason why an RV park and not a building.
617
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.130
Now, I don't think the court should ask that question.
618
00:30:14.130 --> 00:30:15.930
I think that is granular.
619
00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:19.530
How does Hume Lake best fulfill its mission?
620
00:30:19.530 --> 00:30:21.210
And that extends not only
621
00:30:21.210 --> 00:30:23.010
to how does it teach Christianity
622
00:30:23.010 --> 00:30:24.540
through a camping ministry
623
00:30:24.540 --> 00:30:28.200
down to how is it going to sort of on a practical level
624
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:31.580
promote its and support its mission?
625
00:30:31.580 --> 00:30:36.580
In the record there is evidence
626
00:30:36.923 --> 00:30:39.210
and this is addressing your honor's question about
627
00:30:39.210 --> 00:30:40.770
what should this court do?
628
00:30:40.770 --> 00:30:44.430
Not just that this argument that there's cost savings
629
00:30:44.430 --> 00:30:45.263
from these people.
630
00:30:45.263 --> 00:30:49.350
There's evidence that this is seasonal, temporary housing.
631
00:30:49.350 --> 00:30:53.880
The camp doesn't need a permanent building at this time.
632
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:56.767
This is for seasonal overflow.
633
00:30:56.767 --> 00:31:01.290
It is, and in fact, if I may, Mr. Jablowski,
634
00:31:01.290 --> 00:31:03.600
who's the camping director at the time,
635
00:31:03.600 --> 00:31:07.500
testified that in answer on cross-examination,
636
00:31:07.500 --> 00:31:09.333
isn't this all about money?
637
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.200
It's not just about finances, it's about the mission.
638
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.660
What what's the effectiveness of our mission
639
00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:18.420
with the number of people we have going through camp.
640
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:19.410
There's all kind of issues
641
00:31:19.410 --> 00:31:21.990
that would ultimately determine your growth
642
00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:23.250
and the pace of it.
643
00:31:23.250 --> 00:31:24.750
It's actually programmatic.
644
00:31:24.750 --> 00:31:26.460
How big are they going to get?
645
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:28.620
How many people can the camp accommodate?
646
00:31:28.620 --> 00:31:30.210
They don't need the permanent building.
647
00:31:30.210 --> 00:31:32.160
Now that's not just about cost,
648
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:34.680
it's actually about substance.
649
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:36.090
And then the other issue of course,
650
00:31:36.090 --> 00:31:39.360
is that to support the volunteers, you want to have
651
00:31:39.360 --> 00:31:44.360
the capability of them to use the RV hookups.
652
00:31:44.850 --> 00:31:48.990
The type of particularized inquiry that the gland court
653
00:31:48.990 --> 00:31:51.660
did in this case is exactly the type of inquiry.
654
00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:53.940
And that's the language particularized inquiry
655
00:31:53.940 --> 00:31:55.890
that was rejected in Laslett
656
00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:58.743
and it was in direct rejected in Martin.
657
00:31:59.902 --> 00:32:01.980
I think to make the distinction,
658
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:03.450
I don't wanna talk about Tufts for a minute
659
00:32:03.450 --> 00:32:05.580
because there are two parking cases that I think,
660
00:32:05.580 --> 00:32:06.720
I dunno what it is about parking,
661
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:07.860
but there are two parking cases
662
00:32:07.860 --> 00:32:09.840
that I think really make this jux-
663
00:32:09.840 --> 00:32:11.520
They make a lot of money that's why.
664
00:32:11.520 --> 00:32:16.200
Yeah, that's what it's the first is Tufts parking garage.
665
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:17.520
There's two parts to that case
666
00:32:17.520 --> 00:32:18.990
is it pertains to the parking garage.
667
00:32:18.990 --> 00:32:22.890
What's relevant to us here is that the parking garage
668
00:32:22.890 --> 00:32:24.930
was permitted as a component
669
00:32:24.930 --> 00:32:27.913
or part of the educational purpose.
670
00:32:27.913 --> 00:32:30.247
No one, by the way in the record said,
671
00:32:30.247 --> 00:32:33.180
"Who's gonna be parking that parking garage?
672
00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:35.520
Is it volunteers? Is it the general public?
673
00:32:35.520 --> 00:32:36.600
Is Tufts making money?
674
00:32:36.600 --> 00:32:37.650
It really wasn't the question.
675
00:32:37.650 --> 00:32:41.670
You have a large campus, you need a parking garage.
676
00:32:41.670 --> 00:32:42.660
The second part of that case
677
00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:44.430
where the court talked about cost
678
00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:46.350
was a completely different question.
679
00:32:46.350 --> 00:32:49.200
That was, once you assume or decide
680
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.243
that this is an educational purpose,
681
00:32:52.290 --> 00:32:53.370
you come to the next point.
682
00:32:53.370 --> 00:32:55.770
Is there a reasonable dimensional regulation at issue?
683
00:32:55.770 --> 00:32:57.990
Yes, a front setback.
684
00:32:57.990 --> 00:33:00.360
Then you get to the balancing.
685
00:33:00.360 --> 00:33:04.800
Is it too expensive? Is the only issue cost?
686
00:33:04.800 --> 00:33:07.320
Is there a legitimate municipal inquiry
687
00:33:07.320 --> 00:33:08.970
as to whether or not there's a setback?
688
00:33:08.970 --> 00:33:10.680
I mean, in that case, cars were gonna cue
689
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:12.120
out into the street, people would die.
690
00:33:12.120 --> 00:33:15.540
So it certainly was a leg legit legitimate concern
691
00:33:15.540 --> 00:33:16.373
of the town.
692
00:33:16.373 --> 00:33:18.780
Contrast to that parking garage.
693
00:33:18.780 --> 00:33:20.430
And no one cares who parks in there.
694
00:33:20.430 --> 00:33:23.250
At least it's not on the record with Collins,
695
00:33:23.250 --> 00:33:25.560
which is a land court case.
696
00:33:25.560 --> 00:33:27.510
And in Collins, what the court held
697
00:33:27.510 --> 00:33:29.640
was the church has a parking lot,
698
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:31.560
but they have rented it out
699
00:33:31.560 --> 00:33:34.830
to a completely unrelated entity, a hospital.
700
00:33:34.830 --> 00:33:38.190
The hospital is busing their employees back and forth.
701
00:33:38.190 --> 00:33:39.570
They have financial incentives,
702
00:33:39.570 --> 00:33:43.740
they have parking stickers that is completely different,
703
00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:46.837
has nothing to do with the religious nature
704
00:33:46.837 --> 00:33:50.460
of the church in Collins, so-
705
00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:54.850
Let me ask you if you can respond to the argument
706
00:33:56.550 --> 00:33:57.750
in response to my question,
707
00:33:57.750 --> 00:34:01.743
I said, well, isn't the volunteers necessary
708
00:34:03.090 --> 00:34:05.880
for the camp to be financially successful
709
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:10.880
and the RV park is a way to attract volunteers?
710
00:34:12.690 --> 00:34:13.523
Absolutely.
711
00:34:13.523 --> 00:34:15.960
And and the response to that was
712
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.270
there's nothing to support that in the record.
713
00:34:18.270 --> 00:34:20.646
What do you say in response to that?
714
00:34:20.646 --> 00:34:22.080
I say two things.
715
00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:23.220
The first thing I would say
716
00:34:23.220 --> 00:34:24.600
is that that's not an inquiry
717
00:34:24.600 --> 00:34:26.070
the trial court should have made.
718
00:34:26.070 --> 00:34:28.350
Do you need the volunteers?
719
00:34:28.350 --> 00:34:30.180
Are they necessary? That is not-
720
00:34:30.180 --> 00:34:31.140
Well primary purpose.
721
00:34:31.140 --> 00:34:32.580
the question, right?
722
00:34:32.580 --> 00:34:34.440
Primary purpose is to work at the camp.
723
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:35.910
What's their motivation?
724
00:34:35.910 --> 00:34:38.280
That's entirely relevant, irrelevant.
725
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:39.810
Maybe they just want exercise.
726
00:34:39.810 --> 00:34:41.850
That's not the issue.
727
00:34:41.850 --> 00:34:44.430
But to answer specifically, there is support in the record.
728
00:34:44.430 --> 00:34:46.560
The volunteers perform a much needed surface.
729
00:34:46.560 --> 00:34:51.560
In fact, one of the stipulated facts is in retrospect,
730
00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:54.090
but I contributed to that language,
731
00:34:54.090 --> 00:34:56.070
but was it volunteers are a critical
732
00:34:56.070 --> 00:35:01.070
part of the financial operation of the camp.
733
00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:05.661
Yeah they're saying that you don't need the RV park
734
00:35:05.661 --> 00:35:10.350
to accomplish what you need for volunteers
735
00:35:10.350 --> 00:35:12.300
to be able to have the camp function.
736
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:13.890
That's correct. That's correct, your Honor.
737
00:35:13.890 --> 00:35:15.960
You do not require an RV park.
738
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.260
Again, this is a park of seasonal or temporary housing.
739
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:21.150
It would include RVs and the record
740
00:35:21.150 --> 00:35:22.470
is also temporary trailers
741
00:35:22.470 --> 00:35:24.810
and other types of temporary housing.
742
00:35:24.810 --> 00:35:27.720
Yeah, you don't need the volunteers to come in RVs,
743
00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:28.590
but a lot of them do.
744
00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:31.200
These are seniors who are retired and travel around
745
00:35:31.200 --> 00:35:34.020
in the summer and do volunteer at this camp
746
00:35:34.020 --> 00:35:35.640
and in other religious camps,
747
00:35:35.640 --> 00:35:37.560
and I assume other locations as well.
748
00:35:37.560 --> 00:35:39.090
But they come in RVs
749
00:35:39.090 --> 00:35:40.770
it would be nice to have an RV hookup for them,
750
00:35:40.770 --> 00:35:41.880
and it's an attraction.
751
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:45.180
The flip side is if you have a volunteer in an RV
752
00:35:45.180 --> 00:35:46.470
and you don't have a hookup
753
00:35:46.470 --> 00:35:49.740
and you're not permitted to have RVs on campus,
754
00:35:49.740 --> 00:35:52.320
then that would exclude those volunteers.
755
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.180
What are they gonna do with their RV?
756
00:35:54.180 --> 00:35:55.743
They can't come volunteer.
757
00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:00.480
Does that answer your honor's question?
758
00:36:04.380 --> 00:36:08.290
I just in terms for a moment about the volunteer's
759
00:36:09.330 --> 00:36:11.280
motivation for being there
760
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:14.520
and whether or not it makes any difference whatsoever,
761
00:36:14.520 --> 00:36:16.590
whether they are subscribing
762
00:36:16.590 --> 00:36:20.280
to Hume's religious creed and doctrine,
763
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:21.660
its statement of belief,
764
00:36:21.660 --> 00:36:25.050
whether they are a different type of religion
765
00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:26.910
or whether in fact, again,
766
00:36:26.910 --> 00:36:29.603
they're just there for exercise and they don't care at all.
767
00:36:30.660 --> 00:36:33.330
I don't think that matters at all to the inquiry
768
00:36:33.330 --> 00:36:36.000
as to whether the primary purpose of the temporary housing
769
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.020
is to support and further the mission of the church,
770
00:36:40.020 --> 00:36:41.250
including its oper, excuse me,
771
00:36:41.250 --> 00:36:43.110
the camp including its operation.
772
00:36:43.110 --> 00:36:44.610
They're there to work at the camp,
773
00:36:44.610 --> 00:36:47.730
and the court found that there's a factual finding
774
00:36:47.730 --> 00:36:51.337
that volunteers are at Hume, the court says,
775
00:36:51.337 --> 00:36:56.187
"For a day, a week or more while they are working at Hume."
776
00:36:57.150 --> 00:36:59.553
That's a specific finding that the court made.
777
00:37:00.990 --> 00:37:05.790
The court did in one small place engage
778
00:37:05.790 --> 00:37:08.400
in what can only in my mind be described
779
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:10.893
as complete speculation.
780
00:37:11.790 --> 00:37:15.457
And specifically what was said was,
781
00:37:15.457 --> 00:37:16.860
"Who knows the volunteers
782
00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:18.960
could even be there just for sightseeing
783
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.890
and maybe it's just a farce or something that they come
784
00:37:22.890 --> 00:37:25.080
and they park up at Hume and then go,
785
00:37:25.080 --> 00:37:27.600
I don't know, go to Tanglewood or something."
786
00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:30.060
Not only is there no evidence whatsoever
787
00:37:30.060 --> 00:37:31.020
in the record for that,
788
00:37:31.020 --> 00:37:33.300
but there is evidence to the contrary,
789
00:37:33.300 --> 00:37:35.970
when asked that question, Mr. Jablowski testified
790
00:37:35.970 --> 00:37:40.170
that he has never heard or observed of a volunteer
791
00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:42.600
faking coming to work at the camp
792
00:37:42.600 --> 00:37:47.600
and instead going to all of the gorgeous attractions
793
00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:50.100
that are in Southern Berkshire County.
794
00:37:50.100 --> 00:37:54.390
So I have no idea where that that came from,
795
00:37:54.390 --> 00:37:57.240
but it apparently was significant to the court.
796
00:37:57.240 --> 00:38:00.993
I don't think there's evidence is contrary to that point.
797
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:05.850
If Your Honors have no more questions,
798
00:38:05.850 --> 00:38:07.388
I could talk about this all day,
799
00:38:07.388 --> 00:38:08.822
(Your Honors laughing)
800
00:38:08.822 --> 00:38:11.070
but if Your Honors have no more questions on that point.
801
00:38:11.070 --> 00:38:11.903
No, thank you.
802
00:38:15.060 --> 00:38:17.400
I'd like to just address the other question
803
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.680
and the question that this court posed that,
804
00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:20.940
at least from my perspective,
805
00:38:20.940 --> 00:38:24.780
was not part of the trial because it was stipulated,
806
00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:26.490
and not only was it stipulated,
807
00:38:26.490 --> 00:38:29.004
but the court then made very specific, extensive findings
808
00:38:29.004 --> 00:38:31.590
about why Hume qualifies
809
00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:33.513
for Dover Amendment protection at all.
810
00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:36.600
First of all, as your Honor knows,
811
00:38:36.600 --> 00:38:38.760
there's two parts for Dover Amendment protection
812
00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:39.990
for a religious entity.
813
00:38:39.990 --> 00:38:41.790
Sure you don't wanna rely on your brief on that one.
814
00:38:41.790 --> 00:38:43.770
You won that one already.
815
00:38:43.770 --> 00:38:44.970
Thank you, your Honor.
816
00:38:45.990 --> 00:38:48.720
If the courts wanna discuss sector denomination at all.
817
00:38:48.720 --> 00:38:50.943
I know you wanna tell us things.
818
00:38:53.348 --> 00:38:56.253
Then I will rest on my brief on that point.